[He is absolutely following along without dawdling. He wants to avoid pointless arguing as much as Valour wants to avoid smalltalk.]
I appreciate your honesty.
[He also appreciates the gap moe, but he's keeping that to himself. He is, however, staying standing. He'd rather be awkward than get comfortable in what he can't help but see as enemy territory.]
Now what is so important we need to discuss it in person?
"Time Travel. I have the ability to do that, and we've been looking into ways to achieve that. The fact that G'raha was able to points out to it being more than doable in your world.
Though obviously doing that in the same timeline in which you and your friends are currently residing would mean - well. You would cease to exist. You won't die but you would never have existed in the first place.
Doing it on a different timelime, potentially the one G'raha has abandoned already, would mean reversing the clock, undoing untold suffering, and allowing Emet-Selch and the others to restore their home.
[On a gut level, Thancred doesn't want to give even the slightest consideration to anything an ascian wants to do. But he isn't brash enough to follow through on that dismissive impulse. He's quiet for a moment, thinking, before he ultimately shakes his head.]
I sympathize with them. I honestly do. But the lives in any world belong to those who live them. It isn't up to us to decide they should be erased. As I told G'raha Tia, if I could save what remains of his timeline I would. It would go against everything I've fought for to do the opposite.
[ it's time to talk again apparently, and he sets his notebook aside ]
But I fail to see exactly why you think the way things are is how they're always meant to be. Even if they were do you really think you have any right to decide that either? They want to save their world, too.
He will turn back the clock on a timeline whether you agree to this plan or not. I'll see to it. So you can stand aside and agree to the one way this would not actually harm you and yours, or you can be stubborn and hope you'll reach graduation before any one of us does.
Whatever the worlds that followed become is yet to be seen. Perhaps one day they too will end, despite all we do to prevent it. If so, what comes after us is no less valuable.
If one could reverse the sands of time on every loss, every mistake, no progress would be made. I don't seek to preserve only that which I love and find familiar. ...Even if I may find the consequences of these values difficult to bear at times. And thus I cannot simply "stand aside".
You have no idea of what you're talking about. You think the end of the world is preferable out of principle? I've lived it.
And I can tell you there's absolutely no progress to be made after that.
I'd understand if you simply said you're not hot on murdering people or just undoing their existence, but saying that things need to stay as they are because that's how they're meant to be is ridiculous.
How can you even think that? If you have the power to change something then you should.
If there was nothing to be had after "the end of the world", I would never have been born.
[Although hearing that makes Valour's position make more sense.]
I never claimed to want things to remain the same forever, with no intervention. If you knew a thing about me, you wouldn't assume such. I only question why their people are worthy of continuing on, above anyone else.
You assume I was talking about what caused your existence with the end of the world — I wasn't. You're right there was something to be had after that. And I'm not about to say your lives have less worth. But G'raha's timeline is already beyond salvation. You saying that they should keep struggling because that's how things are meant to be is also deciding for them.
To me their people are worthy of continuing on above anyone else because I care about Emet-Selch. But I have no illusions on it being morally right or just - I'm simply able to be honest about it. Whether it's the people of Amaurot or those who came after, each choice require the other to be gone. And I'm sure you can guess I'm not a fan of keeping things as they are because that's how they're meant to be, so that argument doesn't work for me.
You're right that I don't know anything about you. That's part of why I've invited you here. I want to understand, so regardless of my stance on this, I do want to have a civil conversation.
Given the power to do one or the other, I would choose to solve the problems of that timeline, rather than erase it. It may seem impossible, but those I consider friends have done the impossible time and time again. In fact, I have personally aided them in repairing the stagnant aether of parts of the First, so I don't see why we couldn't do the same for that future, given the chance.
[He takes a slow breath, willing himself not to scowl. It'll solve nothing to be angry. Snapping at people has never helped. But snapping is exactly what Thancred is naturally inclined to, so it's taking quite a bit of effort.
Where are the diplomats when you need them? This isn't a conversation that can be salvaged by cursing or playing the fool.]
And given that ascians created those problems in the first place, I'm not inclined to give them any rewards regardless. The number of lives they've destroyed, and were prepared to destroy even before their world was shattered, afford them nothing. I have spent my entire life trying to stem the bleeding they have caused. I will not pretend personal grudge plays no part, but I would be willing to set it aside if I thought this plan was a fair one. You may not care about justice, but I do.
[ there's a pause at that as he considers the words. He'd assumed Thancred's problem was just murder, but if it's a sense of justice it's already way more complicated and Emet may be right in guessing it's not salvagable.
I do. They may have more wits about them than tempered mortals, but they're out of their minds all the same.
[His voice softens when he says that. It's not an easy thing. He does feel for them -- both the tempered mortals he's dealt with and even the ascians, in a way.]
I do wonder if they would want to destroy so much, were they capable of choosing for themselves.
They already don't want to. I have strong reasons to suspect if they weren't compromised, at this point they wouldn't even function. They're essentially held together by that.
I know you don't owe them anything. I'm not stupid or cruel enough to expect someone who was a victim of their scheming to forgive and let go either.
But if you really do feel for them, well. Maybe take in consideration most of their choices were dictated by something else, and caused by despair. It might not be just, but there is a way to fix things.
I am doing my best to consider just that. If they were willing to learn to be happy in the world that exists, and aid us in working to make it better, I would-- ...Perhaps I wouldn't be able to forgive them, but I would fight for their ability to do just that. I am far from immune to spite, but I am no monster. I could swallow my tongue and offer them whatever succor they need, if they simply asked to heal and grow the way all men should.
[This is a little too emotional though and he doesn't like it, so he's heaving a sigh and making a helpless sort of gesture.]
Do you, and do they, realise that even should they turn back time, they themselves may still remember all they've lost and all they've done? Can their society be truly restored, having known strife? Even if so, can they protect it from pain for eternity? Their plan, at the time, seemed to be to make sacrifices to a hungry god forever. Is that the happiness you want to give them?
[ he sighs and puts the notebook down in favor of going to check his shelves. Guess who's got a bottle of whiskey RIGHT THERE and two glasses - he's pouring one for Thancred too. ]
Obviously the thought that it might all repeat itself again has crossed my mind. I don't trust their god and I don't believe for a second that if they were to summon him again, he'd demand sacrifices of them again.
The idea is for them to go back to far before the final days, with enough knowledge that they'd be better prepared to face them. With more time on their side.
I initially wanted to find a way to undo their current condition, but I'm not certain of how good an idea it would be any more. Ideally I would want them to be happy, and their worlds to be theirs alone. Not some asshole god's.
[He is really not enjoying this whole being nice about ascians thing. It seems like the right thing to do, but it's so much easier to just punch them!]
...No, this is a pointless line of thought. Even if you could guarantee success, I cannot support that course of action. The road to happiness requires accepting ones losses and moving past them. If we mortal fools can learn to trudge forward within our petty, short little lives, these great and perfect beings can do the same. Honestly, in some ways they're like sheltered children.
Forgive me if I don't trust you well enough to give you my life's story.
[Does he really have to talk about this? He's very clearly unhappy, and strongly considering storming out rather than talk. He even starts to lean in the direction of a door for a moment, before closing his eyes to steady himself yet again.]
My own choices were not nearly on the same scale, and I recognise that. I also find it rather vexing to have my point discarded simply because you dislike it. Apparently, this is the key point we've come to disagree on. If the world was built on the rule of changing whatever upsets you no matter the cost to anyone else, it would be nothing more than self-serving chaos.
It isn't that I simply dislike it. It's the exact argument those I stand against in my world are using to prevent me from saving my world. Meaning each time you allude to something like that I'm inevitably going to think back on them, and how they think billions of people dying is acceptable because that's just how things are meant to be.
Consider it a request.
[ gesturing toward the glass he prepared for him ]
Not going to drink? I'll take it if you won't. You don't have to tell me about your choices but like I said, I'd like to understand.
[He's... eyeing the glass. It won't hurt, but he's really on edge right now and not sure he wants to dull his senses even a little. Then again, he is being asked to talk about some really rough stuff, and he does probably need to do that if he wants to make his point stick.
...He sighs, finally taking both the drink and a seat. If something bad happens, whatever. He can heal.]
Fine. I'll explain myself to you, if only because I dislike the idea of them spinning a one-sided story.
As a child, I had no family. The person who took me in and taught me how to be a person of worth sacrificed his life to save others in one of the ascians' calamities. He was a leader in the battle against what seemed to us like a cruel fate, and in his wake those of us still fighting only grew closer. When Lahabrea took my body, he used it to betray them. Nearly all were killed. Then the rest of us were driven to a corner, and Minfilia -- a woman I'd looked after like a sister -- gave herself up to the mother crystal to save us. In the end she gave all but the last shreds of her life to stop the destruction of the First. When I met her again, she was inhabiting the body of a young girl. Not wanting to take her hosts' lives from them, she lent them her power and left them to make their own decisions, and grieved all those who perished following her legacy.
Ultimately, she left it to the final host to determine which of them would go on. Minfilia's power was needed in its entirety. One soul needed to absorb the other. I... did not want to accept the possibility of her leaving. I wished only to save her, even at the sacrifice of an innocent girl -- and I was wrong. And still, even as I resisted understanding, I did not choose for her. In doing that, I came to love that girl as well. Just as much. Knowing that I would lose one of them forever should I keep my peace was nigh unbearable, of course, but... it was their choice. And had I stopped them, countless lives would have been lost. My behaviour was far from ideal at the time, as Emet-Selch himself witnessed, but I did make my choice, and they made theirs. Minfilia is gone, and everything I do now is for the sake of the girl she left in my care. But I will not compromise my values or theirs to do it.
[There. He's dumped info, and now he's emotionally exhausted.]
As I said, my dilemmas have been much smaller. But had I refused to let go of Minfilia, I would not have come to know and love Ryne. So on some level, I understand what good can come from loss.
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Re: 267 night
I appreciate your honesty.
[He also appreciates the gap moe, but he's keeping that to himself. He is, however, staying standing. He'd rather be awkward than get comfortable in what he can't help but see as enemy territory.]
Now what is so important we need to discuss it in person?
Re: 267 night
You can probably guess it's not about our budding friendship, so. No reason to dance around the subject.
I wanted to talk to you about Emet-Selch's agreement with G'raha Tia. I've heard you're not inclined to uphold it.
Re: 267 night
And? If you plan to convince me otherwise, you'll only waste your time.
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I can talk about the next few details, so please hold on.
[ and at that he's going to get up so he can grab one of his notebooks, starting to write, and then turning it around to show him ]
"Am I correct in assuming you're under the impression the only way for him to achieve what he wants is through additional calamities?"
Re: 267 night
That does seem to be the preferred method, yes. I take it he's concocted something else?
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"Time Travel. I have the ability to do that, and we've been looking into ways to achieve that. The fact that G'raha was able to points out to it being more than doable in your world.
Though obviously doing that in the same timeline in which you and your friends are currently residing would mean - well. You would cease to exist. You won't die but you would never have existed in the first place.
Doing it on a different timelime, potentially the one G'raha has abandoned already, would mean reversing the clock, undoing untold suffering, and allowing Emet-Selch and the others to restore their home.
That way no one would have to die."
Re: 267 night
I sympathize with them. I honestly do. But the lives in any world belong to those who live them. It isn't up to us to decide they should be erased. As I told G'raha Tia, if I could save what remains of his timeline I would. It would go against everything I've fought for to do the opposite.
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[ it's time to talk again apparently, and he sets his notebook aside ]
But I fail to see exactly why you think the way things are is how they're always meant to be. Even if they were do you really think you have any right to decide that either? They want to save their world, too.
He will turn back the clock on a timeline whether you agree to this plan or not. I'll see to it. So you can stand aside and agree to the one way this would not actually harm you and yours, or you can be stubborn and hope you'll reach graduation before any one of us does.
Re: 267 night
[And also, Thancred's stubborn.]
Whatever the worlds that followed become is yet to be seen. Perhaps one day they too will end, despite all we do to prevent it. If so, what comes after us is no less valuable.
If one could reverse the sands of time on every loss, every mistake, no progress would be made. I don't seek to preserve only that which I love and find familiar. ...Even if I may find the consequences of these values difficult to bear at times. And thus I cannot simply "stand aside".
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You have no idea of what you're talking about. You think the end of the world is preferable out of principle? I've lived it.
And I can tell you there's absolutely no progress to be made after that.
I'd understand if you simply said you're not hot on murdering people or just undoing their existence, but saying that things need to stay as they are because that's how they're meant to be is ridiculous.
How can you even think that? If you have the power to change something then you should.
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[Although hearing that makes Valour's position make more sense.]
I never claimed to want things to remain the same forever, with no intervention. If you knew a thing about me, you wouldn't assume such. I only question why their people are worthy of continuing on, above anyone else.
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To me their people are worthy of continuing on above anyone else because I care about Emet-Selch. But I have no illusions on it being morally right or just - I'm simply able to be honest about it. Whether it's the people of Amaurot or those who came after, each choice require the other to be gone. And I'm sure you can guess I'm not a fan of keeping things as they are because that's how they're meant to be, so that argument doesn't work for me.
You're right that I don't know anything about you. That's part of why I've invited you here. I want to understand, so regardless of my stance on this, I do want to have a civil conversation.
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[He takes a slow breath, willing himself not to scowl. It'll solve nothing to be angry. Snapping at people has never helped. But snapping is exactly what Thancred is naturally inclined to, so it's taking quite a bit of effort.
Where are the diplomats when you need them? This isn't a conversation that can be salvaged by cursing or playing the fool.]
And given that ascians created those problems in the first place, I'm not inclined to give them any rewards regardless. The number of lives they've destroyed, and were prepared to destroy even before their world was shattered, afford them nothing. I have spent my entire life trying to stem the bleeding they have caused. I will not pretend personal grudge plays no part, but I would be willing to set it aside if I thought this plan was a fair one. You may not care about justice, but I do.
Re: 267 night
So it's time to take the NOTEBOOK again ]
"You know they are tempered."
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[His voice softens when he says that. It's not an easy thing. He does feel for them -- both the tempered mortals he's dealt with and even the ascians, in a way.]
I do wonder if they would want to destroy so much, were they capable of choosing for themselves.
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I know you don't owe them anything. I'm not stupid or cruel enough to expect someone who was a victim of their scheming to forgive and let go either.
But if you really do feel for them, well. Maybe take in consideration most of their choices were dictated by something else, and caused by despair. It might not be just, but there is a way to fix things.
And ultimately I simply want them to be happy.
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[This is a little too emotional though and he doesn't like it, so he's heaving a sigh and making a helpless sort of gesture.]
Do you, and do they, realise that even should they turn back time, they themselves may still remember all they've lost and all they've done? Can their society be truly restored, having known strife? Even if so, can they protect it from pain for eternity? Their plan, at the time, seemed to be to make sacrifices to a hungry god forever. Is that the happiness you want to give them?
Re: 267 night
[ he sighs and puts the notebook down in favor of going to check his shelves. Guess who's got a bottle of whiskey RIGHT THERE and two glasses - he's pouring one for Thancred too. ]
Obviously the thought that it might all repeat itself again has crossed my mind. I don't trust their god and I don't believe for a second that if they were to summon him again, he'd demand sacrifices of them again.
The idea is for them to go back to far before the final days, with enough knowledge that they'd be better prepared to face them. With more time on their side.
I initially wanted to find a way to undo their current condition, but I'm not certain of how good an idea it would be any more. Ideally I would want them to be happy, and their worlds to be theirs alone. Not some asshole god's.
Re: 267 night
[He is really not enjoying this whole being nice about ascians thing. It seems like the right thing to do, but it's so much easier to just punch them!]
...No, this is a pointless line of thought. Even if you could guarantee success, I cannot support that course of action. The road to happiness requires accepting ones losses and moving past them. If we mortal fools can learn to trudge forward within our petty, short little lives, these great and perfect beings can do the same. Honestly, in some ways they're like sheltered children.
Re: 267 night
[ time to just pour himself some whiskey as well and just drink. ]
There are some things that you can't and should not move past. Let's hear it. How much have you lost? You said you had to make similar choices before.
I'm quite curious about the scale of such a choice.
Re: 267 night
[Does he really have to talk about this? He's very clearly unhappy, and strongly considering storming out rather than talk. He even starts to lean in the direction of a door for a moment, before closing his eyes to steady himself yet again.]
My own choices were not nearly on the same scale, and I recognise that. I also find it rather vexing to have my point discarded simply because you dislike it. Apparently, this is the key point we've come to disagree on. If the world was built on the rule of changing whatever upsets you no matter the cost to anyone else, it would be nothing more than self-serving chaos.
Re: 267 night
Consider it a request.
[ gesturing toward the glass he prepared for him ]
Not going to drink? I'll take it if you won't. You don't have to tell me about your choices but like I said, I'd like to understand.
Re: 267 night
...He sighs, finally taking both the drink and a seat. If something bad happens, whatever. He can heal.]
Fine. I'll explain myself to you, if only because I dislike the idea of them spinning a one-sided story.
Re: 267 night
But go on. I'm listening.
Re: 267 night
[He grumbles, but continues.]
As a child, I had no family. The person who took me in and taught me how to be a person of worth sacrificed his life to save others in one of the ascians' calamities. He was a leader in the battle against what seemed to us like a cruel fate, and in his wake those of us still fighting only grew closer. When Lahabrea took my body, he used it to betray them. Nearly all were killed. Then the rest of us were driven to a corner, and Minfilia -- a woman I'd looked after like a sister -- gave herself up to the mother crystal to save us. In the end she gave all but the last shreds of her life to stop the destruction of the First. When I met her again, she was inhabiting the body of a young girl. Not wanting to take her hosts' lives from them, she lent them her power and left them to make their own decisions, and grieved all those who perished following her legacy.
Ultimately, she left it to the final host to determine which of them would go on. Minfilia's power was needed in its entirety. One soul needed to absorb the other. I... did not want to accept the possibility of her leaving. I wished only to save her, even at the sacrifice of an innocent girl -- and I was wrong. And still, even as I resisted understanding, I did not choose for her. In doing that, I came to love that girl as well. Just as much. Knowing that I would lose one of them forever should I keep my peace was nigh unbearable, of course, but... it was their choice. And had I stopped them, countless lives would have been lost. My behaviour was far from ideal at the time, as Emet-Selch himself witnessed, but I did make my choice, and they made theirs. Minfilia is gone, and everything I do now is for the sake of the girl she left in my care. But I will not compromise my values or theirs to do it.
[There. He's dumped info, and now he's emotionally exhausted.]
As I said, my dilemmas have been much smaller. But had I refused to let go of Minfilia, I would not have come to know and love Ryne. So on some level, I understand what good can come from loss.
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